Comments on: Winter High Time…. http://paraglidingscotland.co.uk/2007/12/20/winter-high-time/ WordPress weblog for members & friends of East Scotland Paragliding club Wed, 08 Feb 2012 02:48:04 +0000 http://wordpress.org/?v=2.2.1 By: Murray Hay http://paraglidingscotland.co.uk/2007/12/20/winter-high-time/#comment-98 Murray Hay Sun, 23 Dec 2007 00:43:22 +0000 http://paraglidingscotland.co.uk/2007/12/20/winter-high-time/#comment-98 <p>Joe YOU quoted IN THE CONTEX OF THE DISCUSSION ON PARAGLIDING as a right included.. 'access' to cropped fields.... I simply pointed out that to exercise any 'rights' under the code also REQUIRES obligations to be met (by the pilot) in the end it does in fact come down to what would be regarded as "reasonable behaviour", the sites in question ARE "flying sites" (as apposed to a hill someone chooses to climb to fly) the CODE states that the public (in this case PG pilots) should work WITH the land managers... one of us clearly is having trouble understanding what is written! I leave it for others to decide who does/who does not... have an approach that constitutes "responsible behaviour"...</p> Joe YOU quoted IN THE CONTEX OF THE DISCUSSION ON PARAGLIDING as a right included.. ‘access’ to cropped fields…. I simply pointed out that to exercise any ‘rights’ under the code also REQUIRES obligations to be met (by the pilot) in the end it does in fact come down to what would be regarded as “reasonable behaviour”, the sites in question ARE “flying sites” (as apposed to a hill someone chooses to climb to fly) the CODE states that the public (in this case PG pilots) should work WITH the land managers… one of us clearly is having trouble understanding what is written! I leave it for others to decide who does/who does not… have an approach that constitutes “responsible behaviour”…

]]> By: Joe Smith http://paraglidingscotland.co.uk/2007/12/20/winter-high-time/#comment-97 Joe Smith Sat, 22 Dec 2007 22:40:04 +0000 http://paraglidingscotland.co.uk/2007/12/20/winter-high-time/#comment-97 DUH!!! Re- comment 20. No-one said you can take off from or land in the crops. Crop field borders - yes. Harvested fields - yes. Also Re-comment 21. Nonesense, nowhere does it say there is a is the requirement to phone any landownder and 'book' a site. If you wish to phone then thats fine. Go ahead. It could be considered a courtesy NOT a requirement and in no affects access rights. In contrast landowner has the obligation to ensure continued unobstructed access from well known launch/landing sites. So once again in summary...There are NO PRIVATE PARAGLIDING SITES in Scotland. Suggest you perhaps try reading the agreement again - slowly. If you are still having comprehension problems then perhaps a visit to the local primary would be of benefit. I'm sure any 5 year old will be able to explain it. DUH!!! Re- comment 20. No-one said you can take off from or land in the crops. Crop field borders - yes. Harvested fields - yes.
Also Re-comment 21. Nonesense, nowhere does it say there is a is the requirement to phone any landownder and ‘book’ a site. If you wish to phone then thats fine. Go ahead. It could be considered a courtesy NOT a requirement and in no affects access rights. In contrast landowner has the obligation to ensure continued unobstructed access from well known launch/landing sites.

So once again in summary…There are NO PRIVATE PARAGLIDING SITES in Scotland.

Suggest you perhaps try reading the agreement again - slowly. If you are still having comprehension problems then perhaps a visit to the local primary would be of benefit. I’m sure any 5 year old will be able to explain it.

]]> By: Murray Hay http://paraglidingscotland.co.uk/2007/12/20/winter-high-time/#comment-95 Murray Hay Sat, 22 Dec 2007 11:47:52 +0000 http://paraglidingscotland.co.uk/2007/12/20/winter-high-time/#comment-95 <p>Regarding P 74 it states as "responsible behaviour by the public (pilots)" and I quote "Maintain good liaison with the relevant land managers at WELL-USED launching and landing points", clearly a requirment to phone to 'book' the site for flying would be regarded as being "responsible behaviour"...</p> Regarding P 74 it states as “responsible behaviour by the public (pilots)” and I quote “Maintain good liaison with the relevant land managers at WELL-USED launching and landing points”, clearly a requirment to phone to ‘book’ the site for flying would be regarded as being “responsible behaviour”…

]]> By: Murray Hay http://paraglidingscotland.co.uk/2007/12/20/winter-high-time/#comment-94 Murray Hay Sat, 22 Dec 2007 10:36:00 +0000 http://paraglidingscotland.co.uk/2007/12/20/winter-high-time/#comment-94 I've put this on its own for clarity... Is this "reasonable behaviour?" You state that the right to access i.e. in the case under question to 'launch/land a paraglider' includes "Page 92 fields with crops: Acess extends to such areas".......... Now I agree that under the code when WALKING we have the right to access along the border of the field on route to say an unfenced open hill top that looks good to fly from, but are you seriously suggesting that the code gives pilots the "right" to land and take off from/in crops!!!!!!!!! I’ve put this on its own for clarity… Is this “reasonable behaviour?” You state that the right to access i.e. in the case under question to ‘launch/land a paraglider’ includes “Page 92 fields with crops: Acess extends to such areas”……….
Now I agree that under the code when WALKING we have the right to access along the border of the field on route to say an unfenced open hill top that looks good to fly from, but are you seriously suggesting that the code gives pilots the “right” to land and take off from/in crops!!!!!!!!!

]]> By: Murray Hay http://paraglidingscotland.co.uk/2007/12/20/winter-high-time/#comment-93 Murray Hay Sat, 22 Dec 2007 10:27:42 +0000 http://paraglidingscotland.co.uk/2007/12/20/winter-high-time/#comment-93 "If you are responsible for a hilltop, escarpment or other well-used launching or landing point, you could work with your local authority and relevant recreation bodies to ensure that any disturbance or damage by air sports is minimised." This one is the one of the relevant points, the site is a "well used" flying site BUT as such there are REQUIRMENTS and OBLIGATIONS on BOTH sides, the access CODE clearly states that as pilots we are REQUIRED to work with with the landowner if we wisht to take advantage of our 'rights' under the code, FAILURE to act in a reasonable manner and the code does NOT apply... any court would be likely to rule that phoning to check site & book it for a days flying activity was "reasonable" on the part of the farmer... So it all comes down to interpretation/viewpoint YOU clearly feel that it is "reasonable" to set up and launch/land paragliders all day long in FENCED fields containing stock without any discusion/agreement/notifying with the farmer... I do not consider that "reasonable behaviour", and I seriously doubt that the courts would rule in favor of paragler pilots against a farmer in THE STATED CASE... try to remember that I fully agree with you that open hill tops/unfenced etc. ARE open access... Here we are talking about an arranged club flying site. So again where does it STATE that we have a right (with no obligations as you imply!) to use a FENCED stocked field as a flying site without/against the wishes of the farmer i.e. in this case phoning to 'book' the flying site... “If you are responsible for a hilltop, escarpment or other well-used launching or landing point, you could work with your local authority and relevant recreation bodies to ensure that any disturbance or damage by air sports is minimised.” This one is the one of the relevant points, the site is a “well used” flying site BUT as such there are REQUIRMENTS and OBLIGATIONS on BOTH sides, the access CODE clearly states that as pilots we are REQUIRED to work with with the landowner if we wisht to take advantage of our ‘rights’ under the code, FAILURE to act in a reasonable manner and the code does NOT apply… any court would be likely to rule that phoning to check site & book it for a days flying activity was “reasonable” on the part of the farmer… So it all comes down to interpretation/viewpoint YOU clearly feel that it is “reasonable” to set up and launch/land paragliders all day long in FENCED fields containing stock without any discusion/agreement/notifying with the farmer… I do not consider that “reasonable behaviour”, and I seriously doubt that the courts would rule in favor of paragler pilots against a farmer in THE STATED CASE… try to remember that I fully agree with you that open hill tops/unfenced etc. ARE open access… Here we are talking about an arranged club flying site. So again where does it STATE that we have a right (with no obligations as you imply!) to use a FENCED stocked field as a flying site without/against the wishes of the farmer i.e. in this case phoning to ‘book’ the flying site…

]]> By: Joe Smith http://paraglidingscotland.co.uk/2007/12/20/winter-high-time/#comment-92 Joe Smith Sat, 22 Dec 2007 02:12:54 +0000 http://paraglidingscotland.co.uk/2007/12/20/winter-high-time/#comment-92 I can only suggest that you read the guide more slowly and much more thouroughly as you obviously have some comprehension problems. However for ease of clarification the followin might help you on your way: Page 92 Fields with farm animals.Access rights extend to such fields,....... Landowners responsibility: Keep animals known to be dangerous away from fields crossed by a core path or other well-used route. If this is not possible, tell the public and signpost a reasonable alternative route. Fields with young animals page 93: Responsibilites of public. You can avoid disturbing sheep close to lambing time, or young animals such as calves, lambs, foals and farmed deer, by going into a neighbouring field. If this is not possible, keep as far from the animals as possible. Page 92 fields with crops: Acess extends to such areas Page 74: Airsports: Access rights are exercisable above the surface of the land and so extend to non-motorised air sports, such as paragliding. By their very nature, many of these activities require the use of hilltops and escarpments. Responsibities of landowner: If you are responsible for a hilltop, escarpment or other well-used launching or landing point, you could work with your local authority and relevant recreation bodies to ensure that any disturbance or damage by air sports is minimised. Page 60: Prohibited actions by landowners to prevent exercising of access rights: leaving an animal known to be dangerous in a field or area where there is a path or track likely to be used by the public. Page 9 section 2.2 expressly lays out areas where you can exercise your access rights. These include: • fields where there are horses, cattle and other farm animals. Although I could go on quoting, I think that should be more than enough evidence for the reasonably minded to prove once and for all that access code does not only specify unfenced grassland. You may wish to disgree and probably will however its written in black and white. Those with nothing better to do for the next year or so may wish to play semantics however watching paint dry is probably more interesting. You do not have 'private' rights to fly these scottish sites. Acess for all means just that. Joe I can only suggest that you read the guide more slowly and much more thouroughly as you obviously have some comprehension problems.
However for ease of clarification the followin might help you on your way:
Page 92 Fields with farm animals.Access rights extend to such fields,…….
Landowners responsibility:
Keep animals known to be
dangerous away from fields
crossed by a core path or other
well-used route. If this is not
possible, tell the public and
signpost a reasonable alternative
route.

Fields with young animals page 93: Responsibilites of public.
You can avoid disturbing sheep close to lambing time, or young animals such as calves, lambs, foals and farmed deer, by going into a neighbouring field. If this is not possible, keep as far from the animals as possible.

Page 92 fields with crops:
Acess extends to such areas

Page 74: Airsports:
Access rights are exercisable above the surface of the land and so extend to non-motorised air sports, such as paragliding. By their very nature, many of
these activities require the use of hilltops and escarpments.
Responsibities of landowner: If you are responsible for a hilltop, escarpment or other well-used launching or landing point, you could work with your local authority and relevant recreation bodies to ensure that any disturbance or damage by air sports is minimised.

Page 60: Prohibited actions by landowners to prevent exercising of access rights: leaving an animal known to be dangerous in a field or area where there is a path or track likely to be used by the public.

Page 9 section 2.2 expressly lays out areas where you can exercise your access rights. These include:

• fields where there are horses, cattle and other farm animals.

Although I could go on quoting, I think that should be more than enough evidence for the reasonably minded to prove once and for all that access code does not only specify unfenced grassland. You may wish to disgree and probably will however its written in black and white. Those with nothing better to do for the next year or so may wish to play semantics however watching paint dry is probably more interesting. You do not have ‘private’ rights to fly these scottish sites. Acess for all means just that.

Joe

]]> By: Murray Hay http://paraglidingscotland.co.uk/2007/12/20/winter-high-time/#comment-91 Murray Hay Sat, 22 Dec 2007 01:25:44 +0000 http://paraglidingscotland.co.uk/2007/12/20/winter-high-time/#comment-91 I don't know if this will be the last word or not... but are you EVER going to provide the refrence to the section on the act of law as requested i.e. where it SPECIFIES that a aircraft (paraglider) has the right to launch/land from a FENCED area containing STOCK.... as I pointed out the access CODE does ONLY specify UNFENCED grassland.... Remember Joe I have no disagreement over the access rights for paragliding from land in Scotland that IS clearly specified in the code that is OPEN hill tops/UNFENCED grassland with stock etc. I don’t know if this will be the last word or not… but are you EVER going to provide the refrence to the section on the act of law as requested i.e. where it SPECIFIES that a aircraft (paraglider) has the right to launch/land from a FENCED area containing STOCK…. as I pointed out the access CODE does ONLY specify UNFENCED grassland…. Remember Joe I have no disagreement over the access rights for paragliding from land in Scotland that IS clearly specified in the code that is OPEN hill tops/UNFENCED grassland with stock etc.

]]> By: Joe Smith http://paraglidingscotland.co.uk/2007/12/20/winter-high-time/#comment-90 Joe Smith Sat, 22 Dec 2007 01:17:03 +0000 http://paraglidingscotland.co.uk/2007/12/20/winter-high-time/#comment-90 Bullocks! Point is those sites are not restricted and for those with the intelligence enough to apply them properly, easily fit into access codes guidlelines and therefore not private. Sorry but that's the end of it. For readers that have lost the will to live, I'll finish this one here. Though I'm sure as always Murray will want the last word. It'll be the wrong word but, hey its xmas, let him have it. Joe Bullocks! Point is those sites are not restricted and for those with the intelligence enough to apply them properly, easily fit into access codes guidlelines and therefore not private. Sorry but that’s the end of it.

For readers that have lost the will to live, I’ll finish this one here. Though I’m sure as always Murray will want the last word. It’ll be the wrong word but, hey its xmas, let him have it.

Joe

]]> By: Murray Hay http://paraglidingscotland.co.uk/2007/12/20/winter-high-time/#comment-89 Murray Hay Fri, 21 Dec 2007 23:07:25 +0000 http://paraglidingscotland.co.uk/2007/12/20/winter-high-time/#comment-89 <p>Joe I always knew that flying was covered in the land access code, so far your comments/views have provided no new information. The two points I mentioned still need to be addressed: in the case of this 'private' site (and yes I know you object to the term regarding land in Scotland..) ONE: Taking off/landing an paraglider on FENCED farm land with stock on that field, you have not yet provided the refrence in LAW stating that this is permited WITHOUT landowner permision, so can you provide the refrence? I've been unable to find the articles of LAW covering this 'right' that you state exists. TWO: I have still NOT found any refrence in the code/guide that states there IS a right to launch/land a paraglider from a FENCED field that contains STOCK... again in the code can you provide a refrence to where, if it does, it states that this is a right? Remember that under the CODE to exercise a 'right' ALSO requires the individual to comply with the OBLIGATIONS under the code... taking off in a STOCK, FENCED field without the permision of the farmer means that the pilot is NOT complying with the obligations and so MAY NOT exercise 'rights' under the code!</p> <p>Murray Hay</p> Joe I always knew that flying was covered in the land access code, so far your comments/views have provided no new information. The two points I mentioned still need to be addressed: in the case of this ‘private’ site (and yes I know you object to the term regarding land in Scotland..) ONE: Taking off/landing an paraglider on FENCED farm land with stock on that field, you have not yet provided the refrence in LAW stating that this is permited WITHOUT landowner permision, so can you provide the refrence? I’ve been unable to find the articles of LAW covering this ‘right’ that you state exists. TWO: I have still NOT found any refrence in the code/guide that states there IS a right to launch/land a paraglider from a FENCED field that contains STOCK… again in the code can you provide a refrence to where, if it does, it states that this is a right? Remember that under the CODE to exercise a ‘right’ ALSO requires the individual to comply with the OBLIGATIONS under the code… taking off in a STOCK, FENCED field without the permision of the farmer means that the pilot is NOT complying with the obligations and so MAY NOT exercise ‘rights’ under the code!

Murray Hay

]]> By: Joe Smith http://paraglidingscotland.co.uk/2007/12/20/winter-high-time/#comment-88 Joe Smith Fri, 21 Dec 2007 22:57:23 +0000 http://paraglidingscotland.co.uk/2007/12/20/winter-high-time/#comment-88 Keep reading, I'm glad to see you finally now accept that paragliding is indeed provided for in the land access code. Im sure your investigations will also finally also show that it includes enclosed fields and those with livestock. Much earlier than page 74. Likewise continued reading will also show that the landowner cannot discriminate for or against certain users or grant exclusive access to some. The crux of the discussion therefore being proven that there are no 'private' flying sites in Scotland. If flying is permitted, under law, for one then its there for all. Aint life a bitch sometimes:)) Keep reading, I’m glad to see you finally now accept that paragliding is indeed provided for in the land access code. Im sure your investigations will also finally also show that it includes enclosed fields and those with livestock. Much earlier than page 74. Likewise continued reading will also show that the landowner cannot discriminate for or against certain users or grant exclusive access to some. The crux of the discussion therefore being proven that there are no ‘private’ flying sites in Scotland. If flying is permitted, under law, for one then its there for all.
Aint life a bitch sometimes:))

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